Esseks: Brushstrokes and Basslines

Jesse Brede (00:00.086)
I mean, I think the ever present topic that I love to ask people about is like AI. How are you using AI? What do you think about AI? Are you scared of AI?

Sam
I’m not like scared of it because it comes back to the same thing with like the artistry versus mastery thing where it’s like, if there was an AI that like you could like that had like a voice that I could be like, that sounds like this AI. And I became a fan that maybe I’d be a little intimidated, but all it can really do is recreate stuff and like music that sounds like

anyone could make it, like, it just could be made by anyone, you can’t put your finger on it. There’s no shortage of that now, you know?

Jesse Brede (00:39.63)
All right, welcome back to another episode of A Path Unfolding. I’m your host, Jesse Breda. My guest here today is Essex, aka Sam Eckstein. Is that how I that right?

Sam
Yeah, Eckstein.

Jesse
Eckstein, right on, man, good to have you, brother. It’s been a long time. We’ve been kind of in on our journeys together for a while.

You know, haven’t really had a chance to catch up with you in a while. So I’m excited to hear all about it. yeah, man, I, I want to, I’ll actually, let’s take it back to kind of those early days, you know, gravitas released one of your early EPs, bad cartoons, and that’s how we got to know you. And, you know, that was, that was a really fun time. I think that was like, kind of right when you started to tour and get some shows. And, I’m super stoked to see how far you’ve come.

I actually see the little ghost from bad cartoons right behind you there.

Sam
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve always held onto it.

Jesse
That’s awesome, man. And I mean, for me, I’ve always loved your artwork and the fact that you’re this multifaceted artist, know, both doing obviously making music and then creating your own album artwork and now visuals. think that’s, I think that’s dope. I was just kind of looking through your discography and saw you’ve got, you know, volume two of

the Keepsake EP. I wanted to hit, like tell me what’s going on with that. Where are you at with that? What’s that all about?

Sam
Yeah, it’s like a, I’d say it’s kind of like an album, it’s like with like some previous albums, I’ve made it this whole like concept album where everything was connected and it all kind of like flowed and stuff. And this time I kind of wanted to just make

kind of like a mixtape almost, because it’s basically just a collection of all the songs that I just made for more dance floor oriented type stuff, or maybe more so just heavier, more singles. I felt like it was a way for me to, it’s kind of just a collection, a little collection of all the different, it’s probably made over two years, and I kind of just stacked up all these.

dub plates to play at shows that I just didn’t really have any specific thing for. I was like, you know, it’s just kind of collection of all these little like memories from throughout the years. And I wanted to do it like I actually got the idea from this guy, Quaddica, who released something called Scrapyard, where it was just kind of like a collection of singles. And he would release like a different EP every like two weeks or so with like three or four songs. And then at the end, he just like threw them all together as an album.

which is kind of, like that idea because I also liked the idea of being able to make art for like four different things instead of just one thing and putting it out. wanted to like, maybe like use the release format as like kind of a way to, as like points of contact to share like all this art with, you know?

Jesse
Yeah.

Yeah, that’s awesome, man. I’m looking at the artwork right now is I mean, I think that’s cool. Just calling it keepsake and maybe it doesn’t have to have any grand vision behind it. But it’s just kind of like the tunes you’ve been working on and playing and now they get into getting to see the light of day. And I think it works well with this sort of modern day release strategy and people wanting singles. And, you know, the more frequently you can release and kind of give give people a slice of, you know, release radar and, you know,

you know, Friday, Friday, fresh finds on Friday kind of deal.

Sam
Yeah.

Jesse
Yeah. How are you self releasing those? Are you working with a label? Yeah, no, I’m just self releasing these ones. Honestly, it was kind of one of those things where I guess maybe it’s just because I’ve been doing it for so long, but like I don’t really, I don’t know. I’m not really opposed to just releasing them myself. Like it doesn’t seem to do any less well, like

on Spotify or anything. like, as much as I do love working with labels and like the shows and stuff that come along with those releases, but it takes a long time. And these are all just songs that I just wanted to get out. So I was like, you know what? I’m just going to put them out and do all the, I think a big benefit to doing the art myself is I can just kind of market it myself and just make all this material to like push through social media.

Sam (05:21.806)
And I’m, yeah, I’m content doing that and I enjoy making all this stuff. So it’s kind of just like, it’s all a big art project for me, you know? I’m just having fun.

Jesse
Yeah. And you mentioned labels, obviously I’m coming from being a label and looking at people like Deadbeats and seeing what they can offer artists. And I think, you know, one of the things I’ve always said is like, as artists start to get a momentum,

It seems like smart to like maybe do a release with a label and then do a self release to kind of keep your momentum up and not be, you know, adhering to their schedule. that being said, I know you just released with, memory palace Tyler of the trees label. What was, how was, how did that go? How was that? was great. I mean, it was actually like me and Tyler, like we were talking about memory palace for a long time, like over COVID.

And I actually was one of the people, I came up with the name, Memory Palace, and we were brainstorming all this stuff.

Jesse
No way. No way. that’s awesome.

Sam
We were talking about it as just like, I think we were both feeling a little restricted by just the way labels work. And it was kind of more of like, let’s do something that’s for all the, let’s try and just do something really cool.

and different from the way we have been seeing things run. you know, obviously Tyler blew up and it kind of memory palace became its own like enigma, like it’s become its own thing. But he gave me the first release on it, which I was like very appreciative of. And it was, it was super helpful, you know, another good friend of mine, Jay Rogovan is also very involved. So it was very

It was very easy. It was easy like working with friends, which is nice. I, all people I trust, I really trust Tyler’s like vision for both his project and just his tastes in music and visual art. So it was, yeah, it was nice. Cause I, you know, I trusted them with my material and I trusted them to do it justice. I think they did a great job.

Jesse
Yeah. For anybody that doesn’t know Jay is Tyler’s manager and

one of the founders of Compass Management, I don’t know if they still are, but managed G. Jones, E. Prom, Tyler, I think they have Cone Sound, think O.P.O. is on there now. Maya was someone that worked for Gravitas part-time and then she was working for Kompass. yeah. Yeah, she moved over to Compass full-time. She’s super talented, super hard worker.

Jay is awesome. think he does a great job for everyone and really is someone that’s a pleasure to work with in the industry. And then obviously Tyler, like you said, he’s, he’s blown up. It’s so cool to see. I mean, if we’re taking it way back, like this was us at great, great North festival and up in the East coast, like at least when Gravitas was first starting, getting to know you and Tyler and to see where you guys have gone with your careers and the shows that are playing, it just makes me, it makes me so proud to see.

everybody staying in this game because it’s not easy and yeah it’s selling and making it through it and all those ups and downs that come through it i mean i know we’ve all had moments where we’re like i want to freaking quit this and not struggle but when we get to the other side of that that payoff is amazing man

Sam
yeah yeah i mean i never wanted to quit i’m not qualified to do anything else

Jesse
I love it. I love it. You are though. You are. I mean, you’ve worked in graphic design. You’ve had, you’ve done some amazing stuff, right? You’ve had some other.

Sam
Yeah. Yeah. No, I’ve done some like freelance like illustration and graphic design work, but yeah, no, I don’t think, I think even considering all like, even when there’s even with all the downs and stuff, I’d still rather not be doing anything else. I still do what I want every day. You know, I get to, I get to create what I want to create and not like,

client work, is not, it’s still fun, but it’s not the same really.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. Amen to that. What are you, where are you at now? Are you still in Brooklyn? I think that was where you were last time.

Sam
Yeah. I’ve been in Brooklyn for like, I don’t even know now probably like 16 years or something like that.

Jesse Brede
Would you ever consider living anywhere else? Is that just your, that was your home for good?

Sam
I would, I have considered it, but we have a good situation here. We got a nice apartment. Our rent’s not too crazy. We still got a lot of friends here, yeah, wouldn’t, I’d probably, if I lose this apartment and the deal we have, the rent price that I have right now, then I’ll probably just move to Philly or something, just move somewhere cheaper.

Jesse Brede
Right on.

Well, yeah, I want to circle back on your art. I remember going back a while. I was looking through your socials and I saw you had this art show. I remember, think you sold a good amount of the pieces. Well, how, how did that work? What was, was this all stuff that you had done for music or extra additional pieces? What was that like?

Sam
Yeah. I mean, I kind of just, over the years just had like so much art I was sitting on. I made it for.

Like would make it for album art and stuff, but like, you know, only like a fraction. If I made like a, if I made an album for every piece of art I made, then that would be insane. But yeah, I kind of just, it was a suggestion and I was like, you know what, that’d be really cool. And I kind of just like, I’m a big say yes to everything kind of guy. So I just was like, yeah, that sounds like, think someone pitched it to me and I like, that sounds awesome. And then I got really invested in it.

and I had to buy all the display walls myself and all the lights and figure it all out. I’d figure out how to make them look good and all this stuff. it was a lot of work, but it was really cool. It was a major highlight to me because it was also like, it was like a whole day thing. We had during the day, there was display walls. And then we had, I had my buddy Tye-Dye Kai playing an acoustic set.

And then we had like, I did like a down tempo set, but it was all kind of like a casual thing. Like there were people sitting down and like looking at the art. And then we even had like a standup comedy show. There was like a couple of standup comedians came and did like sets there. And it was kind of just like, it was like a big day party kind of thing. And then we kind of just cleared the room and then like let them back in for the, like the ticketed event, which was also just like, you know, the same people. was like, everyone just stuck around. And

Sam
It was really cool and yeah, I basically just, I set up like an online silent auction and then just had basically like a base price for every piece and people could, there was like QR codes next to them and people could like bid online and I sold everything and you know, I made everything reasonably priced because I think, you know, I’m not like a museum artist. I’m not trying to like sell my art for lot of money. I would like to like actually.

sell it to people for something they can afford. So I managed to sell everything and there’s like the couple of these pieces behind me I kept just because it’s like album covers that I have a bit of like sentimental value for. But yeah, I I think I’ll probably try and do them, you know, knock on wood. There’s some wood here. I’d like look around for some wood.

I have another one planned or in the works that I don’t want to go too deep into because I don’t want to jinx anything. But I’m hoping to do it again bigger this year. And you know, I’m thinking I’ll probably finally just get rid of all these pieces because I’ve lived with them for long enough. yeah, I don’t know, I’m probably gonna like just try and make a bunch of my digital art into prints and just make it a bigger thing. I think I’m gonna bring on trying like maybe bring in some other artists make it more of like a

Community like experience and not just like a me art show but more of like an art show that people can participate in

Jesse
Was the show in Brooklyn?

Sam
Yeah, yeah, it was at It was at this place The Meadows which used to be called paper box. I’m not sure if you remember that place, but it’s been around for a long time

Jesse
Sounds familiar. Yeah, and then you did it was all original. There were no prints It was all and I wanted to ask is this mostly like pencil and watercolor? What do you mostly work in?

Sam
Yeah, all of these are watercolor. To be honest, mostly nowadays I’ve been working with procreate and just making like digital art because there’s just such a I think digital art used to be so like corny and bad, but also because the technology was so bad. And now with like the iPad and the Apple pencil, like once I tried that, I was like, this is insane. Like it’s

Sam (14:49.964)
You can do things like unimaginable with it, including like animation now. And I like the idea that I can like make a piece and then like take that piece and animate it. And like, there’s just so much you can do with it.

Jesse
Are you doing that in Procreate or do you take the, do you take the layers into something else?

Sam
Yeah. Well, I Procreate just came out with a second app called Procreate Dreams, which is basically like more of a timeline animation app, but you can drag the frame by frame animations from Procreate.

into Procreate Dreams and then like layer them on top of each other. And it’s like, it’s like, yeah, you can do the work that like an animation studio would do and like on your iPad. It’s insane.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. The whole new ball game. Yeah. I saw you tweet, I think, or talk about it. Somebody had re was using your visuals out, like not for your set. And you were like, Hey, could you not do that?

Sam
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was actually just a someone on Instagram sent me a video of it and I was like, whoa, there was like, he used, it was like 30 second clip. And in that time I saw like four different visual clips of mine and I was like, damn. I knew it was just probably a DJ who’d, you know, I sent the package for, and then they probably just had it on their, had it on the resolution and were running it. they were actually, they actually, replied, they sent my manager a message and they were like very apologetic and

It was all like, was actually a wholesome interaction. don’t think there was any hard feelings.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about like playing, playing at Red Rocks. know obviously that’s like the dream. How, how was that? You got to open for, for rez, right?

Sam
Yeah. Yeah. That was for rez. That was, yeah. Dream come true. mean, that was like one of those, like my parents, my whole family came. And then also my girlfriend and her family came.

So it was like I had like my whole family there with me. It was very, it was a very wholesome moment. And I don’t know how I ended up there, but it was really cool. I definitely, that’s one of the ones where you can like brag to your parents about it they actually know you’re talking about.

Jesse Brede
I did it mom. I got a real job.

Sam
Yeah. They don’t care that I was opening. They were like, you, wow, this is all you, huh? Yeah.

Jesse Brede (17:13.783)
That’s awesome. My mom actually got to come to Red Rocks when I was managing CloZee and Beats Antique and I think Chloe played and then I went, you I was on stage and kind of managing that. And then when she was done, I think it was Polish Ambassador was playing and I went up there and she was geeking out. She was like, I get it. This is so cool. Like, I don’t really get it before. Like, wow. Cause like Chloe had dancers and I think she played guitar for a few minutes. And so was like, you know, some stuff she could

really relate to versus just head knocking beats and just like, damn, that is cool.

Sam
Yeah. I think it has a very, that venue has a very like, anyone like it’s, it’s hard not to enjoy it because it’s just so you’re like, everyone’s elevated and you can like see they like filming the crowd and you can see people on the screen. It’s like a sports game almost, you know?

Jesse Brede
Yeah. Wow. just speaking of like amazing venues, have you had a chance to check out the sphere yet? I have not.

I want to go I was trying to convince my dad to like I was like, let’s go see You know dead in company at the sphere and he was kind of like meh Las Vegas sucks and I was like it does but like sphere sounds cool.

Sam
Yeah, I mean the sphere does sound cool. I wish I’m gonna wait until act. I really want to see goes. Yeah Spend all that money. I’ve heard it’s expensive. I’m not sure though.

Jesse Brede
Yeah yes for sure. Like my brother was like, hey tickets aren’t that bad and I was like no no

You’re going to need to go on the resale market to get them and they were like $700, $800, $1000. that’s about what I heard.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. If you could see one act there, who would you want to see putting you on the spot?

Sam
Man, that’s a tough question.

Jesse Brede
It doesn’t have to be the only one, just like a good one.

Sam
I don’t know. I don’t even know if I can answer that because I’m like, I’d say like someone in like the electronic music world, but yeah.

Yeah, it’d be hard to name someone.

Jesse Brede
I would definitely go with tool. I want to see tool there. And I think hopefully before they’re done, maybe they’ll do one. Yeah. My wife’s a huge Beyonce fan. And so we keep waiting for, Beyonce to announce it. We’ll, we’ll see.

Sam
I’d do Beyonce at the sphere. I know if I pay the tickets that those are going to be insane.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. Right. But, yeah, but I took my wife and her sister. didn’t actually go to the show, but they went to the Beyonce show in Houston and it was like,

Jesse Brede (19:40.302)
I mean, the pictures were insane. Like they do everything, everything that you can do at a concert was done. I mean, they had a freaking horse came out and like, you know, fireworks and lasers and lights and insane video and dancers. It was just like water. It was like, what’s happening, dude?

Sam
Yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever been to like a major production like that as an adult, at least I can’t think of any show I’ve been to that’s that big.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. I’d say be careful because now my wife, like anytime we go somewhere, she’s like,

It’s okay. mean the Beyonce concert was better. I’m like damn. Yeah, she ruined it for you.

Sam
Yeah, I want to keep the I’ll keep my cap at a lower.

Jesse Brede
Yeah, right man, well, yeah, let’s dig in a little bit on like your creative process like do you have any like Where do you get your inspirations from music? Is there ever like you you’re walking down the street and you’re like, I see a thing and that makes you want to write or is it just an everyday grind and just open it up?

the DAW and getting at it?

Sam
Yeah, honestly, like I don’t really like ever, I don’t really ever like try to be like, I have an idea. me like write this down. It’s more of like, just open and play around an experiment. And like, I almost like, if I like think of a melody and then like play it out and like, write from like a plan, it’s like, it always sounds stale to me. I think the real like excitement comes from like surprising yourself or like trying to like

find happy accidents that somehow work or like try and make something that sounds like it shouldn’t work, try and make that work somehow. like, it’s like, for me, it’s more of just like, enjoy kind of, I enjoy like having, I just try and like, it’s like a sense of play, you know, you just like mess around and try and have fun and like not set any expectations and then just make like a million things, just try and make something every day and then.

when it’s time to release something, then you more just like choose your favorite things that you started and maybe just like put the final touches on them or like figure out what goes together. But yeah, I just kind of like try and work with a sense of play and just try and have fun and then stack up as many tunes as possible without any real plan or vision, you know? I think the vision kind of creates itself.

Jesse Brede
Yeah, nice. Yeah, I mean, I think for you, I think you have a very distinctive kind of synth

Jesse Brede (22:04.494)
palette and some of the melodies and tones that you use, did that just evolve over time? I mean, I don’t know if that’s a great question or not, but it’s it’s cool because you’ve got your own sound, right? And there’s a lot, think there’s a lot of people, especially in bass music, that kind of are doing similar stuff. And when I hear your tunes, like almost immediately, I know it’s an Essex tune.

Sam
Yeah, I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t think it’s an intentional thing. It’s like, I just kind of like go with my gut and like do what I think sounds good. Like I don’t really think about style so much as I’m like, really when I’m like writing nowadays, I try to like, what excites me the most is when I like manage to not sound too much like myself. But I think that all just comes from like my sensibility and like, I just like darker like,

creepy melodies and stuff. That’s just the stuff that tickles my ear and like it just kind of happens to be the way my brain works like melodically. I’ll if I ever write like a I kind of just don’t like happy music. I feel like happy music is generally usually pretty corny sounding to me. So I can just naturally lean towards you know more moody dark sounds. But it’s not really it’s nothing like I put any like thought or intention behind. It’s just like what what

tickles my, tickles my brain.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. If you’re looking back, like what would you say, like either, you know, learning lessons of, of, of how to be more creative or how to be more consistent? Were there any turning points where you’re like, okay. If I, if I do this in the studio or if I show up, you know, at this time or this kind of this, with this approach that it works better for you.

Sam
No, I mean, I think like, really it’s like, I think the turning point for me was more of like,

Sam (24:08.756)
making work for yourself or like doing it. think just trying to do it. think when I first started out, it was all for fun. So like, I would write every day without like, it was not a hassle at all. It was like a joy to do. And I think over time, it became more of a chore that I had to do, I think, once I started like, building a more of a career. And then it became and then you know,

I think I got into a mentality of being like, I have to a certain thing or like, have to like make something that, you know, these kinds of people are going to like, or this kind of like, I to make this kind of sound because this is what’s popular or whatever. And that kind of like killed the joy for me for a bit. And then I just got back into doing it for fun. And that was really the turning point where it’s like, now I never am like, this helped me be productive. Like I don’t need help being productive. just love doing it so much that it’s like just what I do when I wake up in the morning.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. I mean, that does seem like a

journey, right? So it’s like, I’ve experienced that with some of the label and DJing and like, we get serious about something and it starts to be money and our livelihood and we’re into like, how can we climb the ladder, so to speak, and then it gets really intense. And I think that’s cool that you kind of found the other side of it just like, look, that none of that’s gonna really help me create music that I’m stoked on.

I have seen like, and maybe you can talk about this a little bit, like people when they’re first starting out, they’re producing and they don’t have a lot of experience on stage and playing on bigger sound systems. Did you find a level up in your technical production as you started to kind of like create, you know, produce and then go play your stuff on stage and then come back into the studio and be like, I actually need to make this more simple or whatever, open it up or.

cut these frequencies or what so can kind of translate better on the stage?

Sam
I mean, I think, yeah, I’ve also gone full circle with that where I used to not worry about it at all. And then like, I was never like, I was never like a shy, like a shy person with my art. I was always like, so confident that it was gonna be great. And then like, I think there was a point when like I was playing on big systems and stuff. was like, why is my stuff always so quiet? And then I kind of like,

Sam (26:29.966)
went through an existential crisis of being like, I guess I suck and I need to like get better at mixing and stuff. And then I got almost overly obsessed with that to the point where I kind of felt like I was kind of so obsessed with that, that I was kind of like sucking the life out of my music. I think it’s like easy to get to make creative decisions based off of like this idea of like, I shouldn’t do this because it’s gonna not sound good when it’s like loud or whatever. And it can like really kill creativity if you’re like too focused on it being.

clean and loud. Like, at least during the process, whereas now it’s like, I’ve just learned through trial and error over the years, how to just get it sounding. I just make it loud from the start and just mix right into like my mastering chain. And like, I’m like, you know, or at least it’s all go like straight into a hard clipper and like, you know, make sure it’s loud and doesn’t distort. And that’s all I really worry about. I’m not like really

I’m not as much of a stickler about mixing and stuff anymore because also just the music, most of the music that I like is like, it’s not like insanely crisp and high fidelity. Like I’m more concerned with like an interesting idea than like a quick mix. And

Jesee Brede
yeah, think that’s what I see with your music for sure. I was, I was listening to you talk to Mr. Bill and it’s a fairly old podcast at this point, but it’s like, obviously you got a little bit of two extremes. Like he is the freaking wizard technical.

just understands everything to the just insane scientific level. And you were kind of like, yeah, I’m not really like that. And it seems like maybe you, leveled up and you got, you know, you learn those things to get your music loud, but then you could go back to just being creative and being about the, the, musical idea that you’re trying to express.

Sam
Yeah. I mean, I think really like, far as like all that technical, knowledge goes, I think like,

having like all these like very convoluted methods to get your mix like one love higher. Like it’s not really I think that’s like that stuff is useful but it’s also not like I think as an artist. I mean I think there’s a difference between artistry and craftsmanship. You know like I think you can be a great craftsman but like really where the value is in any kind of art is like you know the idea and like I think I think like a lot of art

Sam (28:57.708)
like visual art that I like has can be rough around the edges and has some texture to it and like has, you know, I think sometimes imperfection is a good thing because it’s, it’s just as, I mean, I think there’s like a level where you’re, when you can get to a level of technical efficiency where you just know how to get things sounding the way that they should, anything beyond that is not as important as focusing on the ideas that you’re doing and like, you know,

the song itself as opposed to like a mix down or how it’s going to sound on the system because I mean at the end of the day it’s there’s there’s only so much that like there’s only so much of a difference between the perfect mix and a good mix like a good enough mix the difference to the average listener is is not really even comparable

Jesse
yeah yeah I think I

I heard edit from the glitch mob talk about this and they like for the, for the most of the tracks life when they’re working on something, they’re really trying to refine the musical idea and hone in on that phrase and that expression. And then later they dial in all the technical stuff. So they kind of, they kind of phase it out. And the other thing I was going to think about is even someone like, like, like of the trees, right. one of his most popular tunes, which I think is something that really like,

Really got people excited or I can go back to it again and again is like Wind Horse and It’s the it’s the emotional content. It’s like you go there and you just like It’s touching your heart versus, you know This is a banger and I look at Spotify and like most most heavy bass music doesn’t really do that Well in terms of numbers, but like when it’s like a vocal it’s got a really really dialed in a musical

emotional appeal to it, whether it even be heavy or sad or happy or whatever. I think that’s what causes a song to come, you people to come back and listen to it again and again.

Sam
Yeah. Well, I think there’s a lot to be said for like, I think the older you get, at least for me, it’s like the less you are insulated by this little festival scene, electronic music bubble. And the more you like start to go back to appreciating

Sam (31:24.224)
Music in general outside of that bubble and that’s like, you know, you start to Say yourself, you know, this song isn’t mixed it like yeah The song isn’t mixed at your bleedingly loud volumes and i’m feeling something from it it’s like nice and i’m enjoying it I guess maybe I can write a song that’s you know Yeah, that has some dynamics in it and isn’t like completely squashed to shit. But yeah I I mean, I think that’s it’s like an obvious thing, but I think when you get very like

head down in this industry, especially like in bass music and stuff, you can kind of forget that not everyone is concerned about like having the loudest, cleanest mix or like anything like that. Most people are just like, this sounds cool, nice. And like when you can, when you can like get out of that, like over, like over analyzing yourself and just try and go back to like making something that’s enjoyable to listen to or just unique or just interesting.

that’s really like, that’s like 90 % of, that’s 90 % of the value. And then all the little like technical mastery on top of it, that’s just the craftsmanship. That’s like, that’s a, it’s important, but only like, you know, only like a percentage of it.

Jesse Brede
Yeah. No, it makes sense. Yeah. I think the craftsmanship is that’s a really, I think that’s a really, really good point is like, what’s the artistry. And I think the artistry is

is what people truly connect with on an emotional level. And then the craftsmanship is just the sort of the delivery and the shaping and the final process of something. Yeah, that’s cool, man. That’s a good chat. Well, let’s take a little time out and pause. What else, man? We covered a lot of ground there.

Sam
Yeah, I’m open to whatever, you know. I’m an open book.

I love it. Send me on a topic and I’ll go.

Jesse Brede
Let’s see. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the ever present topic that I love to ask people about just because I get this really wide ranging answers is like AI. How are you using AI? What do you think about AI? Are you scared of AI? Is it something that you’ve tried and are excited about?

Sam (33:48.32)
I have not tried any AI stuff. I’m not really actually, you know what? No, I did. I did try out that ozone like self mastering thing. Okay. And I was like, I don’t know. This sounds pretty good, but like, I don’t use it. I don’t really use it, but I don’t know. I don’t really, I’m not like scared of it because I mean, it comes back to the same thing with like the artistry versus mastery thing where it’s like,

I’m not like, if there was an AI that had a voice that I could be like, that sounds like this AI, and I became a fan, then maybe I’d be a little intimidated. all it can really do is recreate stuff. music that sounds like anyone could make it, it just could be made by anyone. can’t put your finger on it. I don’t think that’s… There’s no shortage of that now.

Jesse Brede
That’s a good point.

Hell yeah. That’s good. I liked that take, man. I think that’s a, I think that’s a good take. I know like someone like Bluetech, like he was super quick to adopt it and he got really into mid journey. He’s a, he’s a visual artist. think mid journey and his type of art work well together. And so he was iterating and taking layers and taking pieces and sort of the photo realistic, you know, hyper, you know, really bright colors. think he was.

He was doing some cool stuff with that. think the thing I saw was like, and I think the thing that you’re saying is whoever’s the most creative still wins, so to speak. Whoever has something to say and a voice, then you start to use the tool and make it worth at least, make it worth using for you.

Sam
Yeah. I mean, I don’t really see myself. I see there’s one tool that I’ve so far I’ve seen that was like, that’s cool, which is a

I think there’s like a new Adobe thing. I’ve only seen like an Instagram video of a demonstration, like a keynote they were doing about it, but like you can take a 2D image and then just like hit a button and it basically turns it into like a rotatable 3D image and like fills in the gaps of all of it. Like that I’m like, I saw the video and I was like, this seems a little too good to be true. And I’ll believe it when I see it, but that I could use anything else. I also, Simplant has this thing that like can make a pad. You can like put a sound in there and it makes all these varieties of like patches.

Sam (36:14.818)
that are like based off of that sound. And I’ve had some fun with that, but I haven’t really found it hasn’t made its way into like my workflow so much. Like I don’t often go and be like, like usually if I find a sample or like a sound that I want to use or like, you know, something like that, I’ll just use that sound. It’s helpful for getting varieties and stuff. I, yeah, I don’t know. I’m not, I’m not really threatened by it at all because I don’t think, I don’t think it’s ever going to get

to point where like that’s like, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s going to get to the point where it’s going to be anything else than just more over saturation of bad content, which like there’s no, there’s plenty of that now. And like, I’ll just be like, this song sucks and change the song.

Jesse Brede
I mean what what what if though lately just taking it to the logical conclusion someone like Spotify who they have really shitty deals with the major labels Their backs are up against the wall so to speak with paying artists the artists want to get paid more the labels want to get paid more so if they’re starting to really actually use AI to kick out stuff like chill hop or bad country and the sort of on the the level of like may you and I are discerning customers and maybe we still go get

stuff but the way that the Spotify model works is The more music there is it’s like the bigger the bigger the pie gets split or the more the pie gets split up and the pie is the same but all of a sudden it’s like Spotify is using AI music to like fill the chillhop stuff like a lot of people don’t know Really who any of these chillhop artists are and they’re sort of it’s just background music for people to study and you know Whatever and I’m scared of that. I’ll say that I’m scared of that one

Whereas maybe some gravitas music or your music might’ve found its way into that algorithm. It just adds up, right? So, but who knows, right? I think I don’t trust these technology companies to have artists, independent artists, know best interests at hand. Like they say they do, but of course they have to, right? They’re using our content to, you know, to drive their…

Jesse Brede (38:35.886)
platform. I think that’s something like, I’ll even I’ll use an example of like I went to Alaska and I was doing some research on best things to do in Denali National Park. And I was about three or four minutes into a video when I realized, this is completely generated by AI. And they had just done, they had done some chat GPT research on the top 10 things to do in Denali National Park, put that into AI voiceover track.

put that over some stock photos and videos and there you have it. And I was like, this sucks. One, it did suck. You’re right. I did. I did go and find a human being that actually was there and like showing what to do. But, but I was like, pretty, I’m, I’m a decently smart guy. I use computers all the time. And I was like four minutes in and like, wait, this is all AI. So I think it’s, I think it is going to get better there where we’re like, I can’t even tell the difference. I like our parents for sure can’t tell, right? They’re like, this is great.

This kid in the, you know, the, image that was floating around Facebook was like this little girl with her puppy in a boat during North Carolina to, to, to like spur people to be mad that FEMA wasn’t helping even though they were. And this was all AI generated lie to prey on people’s, you know, hatred or vile, you know, like get people riled up and make a bunch of clicks. So.

Sam
yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I did hear something about like where all of that.

the AI slop on Facebook is coming from and there’s like different countries are doing different things with it. heard that I can’t remember it. There was like a study that like all those like pictures of like, like it’s like an AI generated picture of like a soldier who’s like in a lawn chair with like no legs and like for some reason in between lanes and like on like the highway holding a sign that says like, it’s my birthday or something like please click like or something and it’ll have like, you know, three 30,000 likes and like

a million comments from old people being like, God bless. Thank you for your service.

Jesse Brede
Yeah, Facebook in a nutshell.

Sam
But I think the reason they do that is I heard that there’s offices of people making this stuff in Vietnam or somewhere. I can’t remember what the country was, but the incentive is that, guess, Facebook, if your content gets enough clicks and stuff, you will get money for it. So there’s these people just trying to grip this system and just researching what…

Sam (41:01.078)
we’ll get reactions out of Americans or like, you know, boomers on Facebook and just like entering that in, like entering prompts into like appeal to that. I think, you know, it’s all absurd and kind of funny. like, I’m not, I’m I’m not as concerned about it as I am entertained by it.

Jesse Brede
All right. Well, I’m, like the optimism. I’m going to be on your, I’m team optimism too. We’ll, we’ll find our way through it. Hopefully our will prevail. My friend. Yeah, there you go.

Well, maybe that’ll be the title of the podcast. All right, we’ll prepare. I like it. Well, what else, man? What else you got coming up? got any plans for sort of end of the year, looking at next 2025?

Sam
Yeah. I got one more show next week in Orlando, and then I have three dates on the Of The Trees tour in SLC and Phoenix and LA.

Jesse Brede
Nice.

Sam
on those stops. And then, you know, once again, knock on wood, I’m hoping to do this art show at the end of the year when my album comes out. Hopefully the album comes out December 13th, Friday the 13th. First single is Friday the 13th, second or final single also Friday the 13th. And there’s 13 songs. I a lot of thought into this. But hopefully doing this art show and then yeah, next year 2025.

hopefully do another tour of some kind for all these songs and put out more songs. You know, it’s, there’s no plan. just, I’m just, nice making and making releasing and hoping for the best.

Jesse Brede
I like it, man. I mean, I think there’s some, some,

Like you kind of hit on earlier, sometimes we tend to overthink things and make it more complicated than it needs to be. And like, I feel like you’re in a good place. It’s like, just, you’re doing your thing and putting out music and having fun and, creating art. Like I was going to ask, what’s the balance? Like how often do you, are you creating, you know, visual art versus music? Does it change from week to week? Is there times where you kind of go with the ebb and flow or is it pretty consistent?

Sam (43:19.438)
it’s all just. It’s all like vibes. I don’t ever wake up being like, need to work on this today. Really the only time I end up actually being the most productive is when I’m like, I got something else I need to do today. And then I’m like, let me just hop on my computer for a second. And then six hours later, I’ll be like, shit, this is cool song. for me, I never wake up being like, I need to do this or that. I’ll write notes and be like, this is something you need to get done in time. But usually when I have a long list of those things, that’s when I get something else done.

that’ll fill in the gap of a previous thing that I needed something for. I’ll be like, this art’s perfect for this thing that I needed to get done.

I love that.

Jesse Brede
That’s fun, Cool, man. Well, yeah, thanks for the chat, man. It’s been so good to catch up with you. I’m stoked to hear the rest of these EPs and the album. I do hope your knock on wood art show lands and happens.

good luck on these dates with of the trees and yeah man lots of love and just keep keep doing your thing brother I’m really proud of you.

Sam
Thanks man appreciate you Jesse.

Jesse Brede
Alright brother talk soon have a good one.

Sam
Alright man take it easy.